Omar Zenhom, co-founder and CEO of Webinar Ninja, talks to us about bootstrapping his business, and how to effectively grow and scale your company by hiring team members.
https://webinarninja.com/sarah
Transcript
welcome to the Fargo preneur podcast.
Sarah St John:I'm your host, Sarah St.
Sarah St John:John and my guest today is the co-founder and CEO of webinar ninja, and the
Sarah St John:host of the a hundred dollar MBA show.
Sarah St John:But today he is going to talk to us about how to make sure we are
Sarah St John:hiring the right team members.
Sarah St John:Welcome to the show, Omar.
Omar Zenhom:Hey, Sarah.
Omar Zenhom:Great to be here again.
Omar Zenhom:And awesome to talk to you.
Sarah St John:we were just talking a little bit before we got started
Sarah St John:here that you were one of the first, I think seven episodes of
Sarah St John:the frugal preneur, back in:Sarah St John:So warms
Omar Zenhom:my heart or was I hard cause to be one of the first
Sarah St John:well, awesome.
Sarah St John:Well, I know you want to talk a little bit about.
Sarah St John:the cost of a bad hire and how to hire the best talent and
Sarah St John:how to scale and all of that.
Sarah St John:First I'm kind of curious, I know, you know, you got your software
Sarah St John:program, webinar, ninja, and you have the podcast and all that.
Sarah St John:So what specifically, have you always kind of been in this area Of scaling
Sarah St John:and growing a team and stuff, or is this a new interest of yours?
Omar Zenhom:Well I just been asked about this a lot recently in the last
Omar Zenhom:couple of years because of the pandemic, because people are hiring remotely
Omar Zenhom:because people are trying to find new ways to manage people remotely.
Omar Zenhom:I learned a lot along the way over the years because our business is self-funded.
Omar Zenhom:And money needs to go a long way.
Omar Zenhom:Mistakes cost a lot.
Omar Zenhom:So you gotta make sure that you do the right thing.
Omar Zenhom:So I've made my share of mistakes and I just feel like it's just my
Omar Zenhom:duty to kind of share through my experiences, what works, what doesn't.
Omar Zenhom:A lot of people get nervous when it comes to making their first few hires and then.
Omar Zenhom:As your team grows it gets a little bit more high stakes, cause it's a lot easier
Omar Zenhom:for two or three people to get along.
Omar Zenhom:10 people, 20 people, you need to make sure there's a cultural established
Omar Zenhom:and the person you're hiring is actually a good cultural fit because
Omar Zenhom:in my experience most people don't work out, not because of their skills.
Omar Zenhom:It's just because of their attitude or they're just not a good fit
Omar Zenhom:for the team or fit for what your customers need, all that kind of stuff.
Omar Zenhom:So, yeah, it's just been something I've been learning along the way and been
Omar Zenhom:called upon just because of the climate.
Sarah St John:Yeah, that makes sense with COVID and the shutdown and just everyone,
Sarah St John:going online and working remotely.
Sarah St John:And so how does one know when it's time to hire someone?
Sarah St John:if there are solo preneurs, how do they decide when the right time is
Omar Zenhom:I think one of the hardest things as an entrepreneur is making that
Omar Zenhom:first hire that transition because in the beginning, you're just hustling.
Omar Zenhom:You're doing everything yourself, which is actually good.
Omar Zenhom:I actually encourage people to do everything themselves because they need
Omar Zenhom:to understand how every aspect of their business works because they're going
Omar Zenhom:to have to hire for it in the future.
Omar Zenhom:But that shift of making a hire your first hire is.
Omar Zenhom:That mental shift of, I shouldn't be doing everything right.
Omar Zenhom:An entrepreneur really has an idea and wants to see the
Omar Zenhom:idea, reach its potential.
Omar Zenhom:And if it's a big idea or it's an idea that gets bigger and bigger,
Omar Zenhom:you just can't do it alone.
Omar Zenhom:You're going to, in order for you to compete in order for you to do it
Omar Zenhom:at a higher scale or a higher level, you're going to need to get some help.
Omar Zenhom:And that's a mental shift that first has to come into play.
Omar Zenhom:And I feel like that the best way I was able to.
Omar Zenhom:Mentally is how much is my time worth is really asking yourself that question,
Omar Zenhom:how much is an hour worth for you?
Omar Zenhom:we all should have an hourly rate for our time, because you can use
Omar Zenhom:that rate in making decisions of, if you want to do this endeavor,
Omar Zenhom:do you want to do this partnership?
Omar Zenhom:Do you want to work on this project?
Omar Zenhom:Because there's going to be opportunities everywhere.
Omar Zenhom:And if we just say yes, CSS to everything, our calendar gets.
Omar Zenhom:I always say that it's easy to see.
Omar Zenhom:Yes.
Omar Zenhom:Because that's future Omar's problem.
Omar Zenhom:oh yeah, I'll do that.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:But future Omar comes around and be like, Hey, why'd you burden me with this.
Omar Zenhom:All right.
Omar Zenhom:So the point I'm making here is that we all have to value
Omar Zenhom:our time and realize that.
Omar Zenhom:Most precious commodity.
Omar Zenhom:you can always make more money.
Omar Zenhom:You can make more connections.
Omar Zenhom:You just can't make with more time.
Omar Zenhom:you have a certain amount of time surmount hours in the day, certain amount of
Omar Zenhom:days in the year, amount of years in your life, that's it that's the bank.
Omar Zenhom:So in order for you to get more done and get more accomplished, you're
Omar Zenhom:going to need to hire somebody.
Omar Zenhom:You need to grow your team and your.
Omar Zenhom:Basically create a multiple of your time by making a hire.
Omar Zenhom:So that's really the first step I would say is making that mental
Omar Zenhom:shift and realizing, my time is the most valuable thing here.
Omar Zenhom:Yes.
Omar Zenhom:I can do everything myself, but should you do everything yourself?
Omar Zenhom:Is the question.
Omar Zenhom:That's the first step.
Omar Zenhom:I would say the second step I would say is getting over the hump
Omar Zenhom:of the understanding that yeah.
Omar Zenhom:If I hire somebody, this is very common, by the way.
Omar Zenhom:Yeah.
Omar Zenhom:If I hire somebody, they're just not going to do it the way I do it.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:They're just not gonna, it's not going to be as good as
Omar Zenhom:the way I write my blog posts.
Omar Zenhom:So I was going to be as good as the way I find images on the internet
Omar Zenhom:and cultivate this great thumbnail.
Omar Zenhom:My answer to that is you're right.
Omar Zenhom:But there's a cost to everything you can't just continue to do everything yourself.
Omar Zenhom:So what if that person you hired does it at 80% of what you would do or 90.
Omar Zenhom:That's still good enough for you to pull off what you're trying to pull off.
Omar Zenhom:And that time you're buying is gold.
Omar Zenhom:remember time is priceless, right?
Omar Zenhom:It can't buy more time.
Omar Zenhom:So if I hire somebody and they do it at 90% of what I would do,
Omar Zenhom:and I just swallow my pride and realize, okay, no, one's like me.
Omar Zenhom:And by the way, overtime.
Omar Zenhom:I'm not that great.
Omar Zenhom:I think it's better, but really there's lots of people out there
Omar Zenhom:that could do better than me.
Omar Zenhom:And you learn that over time through a few hires, but those are
Omar Zenhom:the first two steps I would say.
Sarah St John:And how does one determine, don't you call
Sarah St John:it the effective, hourly rate?
Sarah St John:So EHR, I guess I mean obviously if you're charging per hour, say you're
Sarah St John:consulting or coaching any charge, let's say a hundred, 200 an hour, then you can
Sarah St John:kind of, that's easier to figure out, say it's not as cut and dry or obvious.
Sarah St John:Is that, how does one figure
Omar Zenhom:that out?
Omar Zenhom:Yeah.
Omar Zenhom:An easy way to do it.
Omar Zenhom:And I learned this from Nepal is that you look at your total revenue,
Omar Zenhom:how much money you made this month.
Omar Zenhom:say for example, you made $10,000 in the month, right?
Omar Zenhom:And you work 40 hours a week.
Omar Zenhom:That's four weeks in a month.
Omar Zenhom:That's 160 hours.
Omar Zenhom:So just divide that and then.
Omar Zenhom:The reason why you want to double it.
Omar Zenhom:So you want to, that's not how much you're worth, that's how much you're making.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:And you have potential.
Omar Zenhom:The third reason is that you want it to hurt a little bit.
Omar Zenhom:You want it to feel a little bit crazy, for example, when I first
Omar Zenhom:started doing this, my allery rate was a thousand dollars and I
Omar Zenhom:was like, that sounds ridiculous.
Omar Zenhom:What, a thousand bucks, who charges a thousand dollars an hour, so when you get
Omar Zenhom:an opportunity and you say this is going to take me five hours, that's $5,000.
Omar Zenhom:That's worth $5,000.
Omar Zenhom:over time you should reevaluate your hourly rate.
Omar Zenhom:I know that somebody like Neval, his hourly rate is like
Omar Zenhom:a hundred thousand dollars.
Omar Zenhom:Like he puts it at that high because he knows that's the value of his time.
Omar Zenhom:it's not just working time.
Omar Zenhom:Remember time is fluid.
Omar Zenhom:It'd be time for you to relax time for you to read time for you to improve
Omar Zenhom:time for you to be with your family.
Omar Zenhom:That's all time, So how much is that worth to you?
Omar Zenhom:So it should be a stretch.
Omar Zenhom:That's why I say, take your, revenue divided by the number of hours
Omar Zenhom:a month and then, double it just so you can feel like, oh, I don't
Omar Zenhom:feel comfortable with that number.
Omar Zenhom:but that's the way you kind of really start to value your.
Sarah St John:That's interesting.
Sarah St John:Yeah.
Sarah St John:So everyone listening that you have a homework assignment now
Sarah St John:to figure out your hourly rate?
Sarah St John:I think I had heard that one time, but I couldn't remember exactly like, it
Sarah St John:was almost like a formula or something.
Sarah St John:I couldn't remember how that worked.
Sarah St John:Exactly.
Sarah St John:But, when you're.
Sarah St John:Starting out.
Sarah St John:And you hire someone, just say one person, like a virtual assistant, maybe.
Sarah St John:I know there's a bunch of freelance websites out there and whatnot.
Sarah St John:And I know if you hire someone in the Philippines, apparently you only have
Sarah St John:to pay them so much because their cost of living is a lot lower and all that.
Sarah St John:what are your thoughts on
Omar Zenhom:all of that?
Omar Zenhom:I think that's a sound idea.
Omar Zenhom:And I think there's a lot of great talent, not only in the Philippines, but other
Omar Zenhom:parts of the world even south America, if you're in, the U S and you want to a time
Omar Zenhom:zone, that's close by central America.
Omar Zenhom:Eastern Europe, there's a lot of great English speaking, highly qualified.
Omar Zenhom:Different areas, not just VAs, engineers, designers, writers.
Omar Zenhom:there's lots of options out there.
Omar Zenhom:A lot of people are actually quite surprised at how far their money can go.
Omar Zenhom:So my first suggestion, when it comes to that in order for me to express
Omar Zenhom:them, I'll tell the whole story.
Omar Zenhom:So when I started webinar ninja seven years ago one of the best pieces of advice
Omar Zenhom:I got was try to surround yourself with people that are a little bit ahead of
Omar Zenhom:you, where you want to be in five years.
Omar Zenhom:Because you'll learn what you need to do.
Omar Zenhom:So I started doing that.
Omar Zenhom:I started hanging out with other SAS companies.
Omar Zenhom:I looked up to, I got to know the founders of beer companies and I would
Omar Zenhom:go to the same conferences and just learn about what are they talking about?
Omar Zenhom:What are the challenges are having so that I can prepare my business for that.
Omar Zenhom:And one of the things I learned is that at the end of the day, the value of
Omar Zenhom:a business is all about the systems.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:So when, say for example, I wanted to buy a company.
Omar Zenhom:The first thing I would do is like, I want to know, like, what are all your systems,
Omar Zenhom:how do you answer support tickets?
Omar Zenhom:How do you develop a piece of a feature or a product idea?
Omar Zenhom:what is a system you have when you have leave policy and
Omar Zenhom:somebody's going on vacation?
Omar Zenhom:How do you make sure not too many people are off.
Omar Zenhom:I want to know how this is run because if I'm going to buy it,
Omar Zenhom:I want to be able to take over.
Omar Zenhom:So what does, how does this relate to your first hire?
Omar Zenhom:Well, what I learned is that the first thing you want your
Omar Zenhom:first hire to do like a VA.
Omar Zenhom:To document all your systems, If you don't have a system, it's time to create
Omar Zenhom:a system, The reason why we do this, like, so for example, like when I, we hired
Omar Zenhom:our first virtual assistant or executive assistant we needed help with the podcast.
Omar Zenhom:So for example, we had a procedure.
Omar Zenhom:We have a spreadsheet where we have all the topics of the podcast and we
Omar Zenhom:have the sponsors in the spreadsheet.
Omar Zenhom:And then from there we need to record the episode.
Omar Zenhom:And from the episode we edit it and when it gets edited, it gets reviewed.
Omar Zenhom:Somebody listened back to it and then they'll show notes that get written
Omar Zenhom:and then it gets so WordPress blog posts and like there's all these steps.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:We all know it.
Omar Zenhom:I know it because I did it all myself.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:It doesn't really have any value in my head.
Omar Zenhom:But if I had it in a document, that's valuable, somebody would buy that.
Omar Zenhom:that procedure.
Omar Zenhom:So the first thing we do.
Omar Zenhom:This is, I would do a screen, a screencast of all the steps
Omar Zenhom:involved in publishing a blog post.
Omar Zenhom:I need you to create an SOP with a standard operating procedure
Omar Zenhom:and you to write a document.
Omar Zenhom:And basically we've created a bank of SOP for every little
Omar Zenhom:thing we do in our business.
Omar Zenhom:So anytime I give them a task, the first step is the create the SOP, not
Omar Zenhom:to do the task, create the SOP first and then follow the SOP to do the task.
Omar Zenhom:And that's a good way to test that.
Omar Zenhom:foolproof what happens here is that now you got all these great SLPs that
Omar Zenhom:they're creating, and then now you can hire people to do different tasks and
Omar Zenhom:be like, Hey, just follow this SOP.
Omar Zenhom:We have the instructions right here.
Omar Zenhom:And this is just fantastic because.
Omar Zenhom:There's no ambiguity on how you're supposed to do something, how you're
Omar Zenhom:supposed to do anything in a business.
Omar Zenhom:And then when you hire somebody, they can always go back to that reference.
Omar Zenhom:So really what that first hire does is that they're, documenting your IP.
Omar Zenhom:You're documenting what's in your head, all the procedures, all
Omar Zenhom:the things that you're doing.
Omar Zenhom:So that's an out of your head and it's in a word doc literally, or a Google
Omar Zenhom:doc, and it's easy for you to follow.
Omar Zenhom:And then.
Omar Zenhom:you don't have to do anything yourself anymore.
Omar Zenhom:You can literally just point to anybody who could read, can just
Omar Zenhom:follow instructions and do it.
Omar Zenhom:And I think that's a big hurdle are big burden off your shoulders.
Omar Zenhom:Once you figure that out.
Omar Zenhom:Oh man, the reason why I feel I have to do everything is because it's in my head.
Omar Zenhom:Well, what if it wasn't in your head?
Omar Zenhom:What if somebody could just do it and just follow instructions?
Omar Zenhom:Well, that should be the first task anybody you hire to do so
Omar Zenhom:that way it can be passed on to.
Sarah St John:I've been thinking about how I need it's one of many things
Sarah St John:on my list of things I need to do.
Sarah St John:but I imagine like having them create the SOP before they actually do the
Sarah St John:work is almost like a training process for them on, how to do the work
Omar Zenhom:to right.
Omar Zenhom:And in that process when they're creating these SLPs there's, I don't
Omar Zenhom:know if you've heard of the like pebble rock and stone kind of metaphor.
Omar Zenhom:So, sorry.
Omar Zenhom:Sand pebble rock.
Omar Zenhom:One of the things that a lot of people ask when they, were looking
Omar Zenhom:to hire their first hire, the first hires is what do I hire for first?
Omar Zenhom:what do I get off my plate first.
Omar Zenhom:there's a theory that a lot of people, what they do is they do do a lot
Omar Zenhom:of $10 tasks throughout their day.
Omar Zenhom:And $10 tasks are like the death of any business or business owner,
Omar Zenhom:because you can't do this forever.
Omar Zenhom:You're going to burn out these are.
Omar Zenhom:time-consuming tasks like replying to emails, like admin tasks,
Omar Zenhom:like filling out spreadsheets.
Omar Zenhom:Somebody asks you, Hey, can I have be on the podcast?
Omar Zenhom:And then you have to figure out, okay, I got to fill this form images.
Omar Zenhom:important, but it takes so little time.
Omar Zenhom:And at the end of the day, does that really bring in the dollars?
Omar Zenhom:Not really.
Omar Zenhom:It's a $10 task.
Omar Zenhom:But it takes so much time.
Omar Zenhom:So this is like what's considered sand, And then you have, A hundred dollar tasks
Omar Zenhom:They're a little bit more time consuming.
Omar Zenhom:They're a little bit more valuable, but then you have $10,000 tasks and these are
Omar Zenhom:the big rocks, This is like a sales call.
Omar Zenhom:We were closing a deal.
Omar Zenhom:So you can make $10,000 with a new client.
Omar Zenhom:This is like doing a webinar and being able to make revenue on
Omar Zenhom:your new, course you launched, That task has a lot of value.
Omar Zenhom:the goal for any entrepreneur is that they should only be doing $10,000 tasks.
Omar Zenhom:that's the only thing you should be doing.
Omar Zenhom:And what happens is that when you're doing everything, it all gets mixed up.
Omar Zenhom:So what happens is that we usually start our day doing a bunch of $10 tasks and we
Omar Zenhom:fill in a cup, just imagine a cup filling up with sand, And then we try to fill in
Omar Zenhom:some pebbles and then you're gonna put these big rocks in there and there's.
Omar Zenhom:So we basically shortchange ourselves from doing the things that are most
Omar Zenhom:valuable that can bring in all the money that we need for our business.
Omar Zenhom:The idea is that the first thing you should be doing is putting in the big
Omar Zenhom:rocks first, For the big rocks first.
Omar Zenhom:Okay.
Omar Zenhom:You get other people to help you with the pebbles and then the sand and
Omar Zenhom:the sand will go into the crevices.
Omar Zenhom:The point is, is that, we often put the big rocks aside because these little
Omar Zenhom:testing so urgent and we need to do them.
Omar Zenhom:And if I don't reply, then I will look rude and all this stuff you need somebody
Omar Zenhom:to do the little tasks for you to do the two, the $10 tasks for you, which
Omar Zenhom:are important in itself, but it doesn't require you what's your secret sauce?
Omar Zenhom:Like, for example, You need to do these interviews, Sarah, because
Omar Zenhom:you're the talent of the show, right?
Omar Zenhom:You're the one who can get the guests on and extract what you need to extract.
Omar Zenhom:So your listeners can learn.
Omar Zenhom:That's your secret sauce.
Omar Zenhom:You should be spending as much time as possible doing that.
Omar Zenhom:Everything else to make this happen really can be done by somebody else.
Omar Zenhom:that's what I've learned over the years.
Omar Zenhom:that's how you can differentiate.
Omar Zenhom:What's important.
Omar Zenhom:What's on.
Sarah St John:that's interesting about the $10 tasks versus $10,000 tasks.
Sarah St John:I hadn't heard it quite like that and like the whole pebbles
Sarah St John:and sand, but it makes sense.
Sarah St John:So is there ever a point where you should hire someone else
Sarah St John:though, to do a $10,000 task?
Sarah St John:or should you always be doing those types of things?
Sarah St John:At least
Omar Zenhom:that's a good question.
Omar Zenhom:And it, and the short answer is the $10,000 task hires are expensive.
Omar Zenhom:If you can afford.
Omar Zenhom:that's great, but somebody who is going to bring you in, let's say do a $10,000 task,
Omar Zenhom:you know, three or four times a month, they're gonna need to be compensated
Omar Zenhom:for that because that's their value.
Omar Zenhom:So if you can afford that in your business, that's great.
Omar Zenhom:But most businesses when, especially self-funded businesses They're looking
Omar Zenhom:to scale up slowly and try to make as much money as possible as it growing.
Omar Zenhom:And at the end of the day, you're going to do as many tasks as you can, but you want
Omar Zenhom:to free up your time as much as possible with the tasks that don't require high-end
Omar Zenhom:valuable talent, everybody's talented in their own way, but in terms of how much
Omar Zenhom:money they can bring into the company.
Omar Zenhom:So say for example and we've done this and we've, we've seen
Omar Zenhom:a lot of companies do this.
Omar Zenhom:Stanford, somebody hire somebody to run your webinars for you.
Omar Zenhom:cause that's going to bring in new sales, somebody's going to host your webinars
Omar Zenhom:and sell your products and services.
Omar Zenhom:And you could do it like a commission thing or a percentage.
Omar Zenhom:But the point here is, is that, you know, that this person's
Omar Zenhom:going to bring in X amount.
Omar Zenhom:That's a great hire, if they're going to be compensated for
Omar Zenhom:it and that compensation makes sense, you're going to get an ROI.
Omar Zenhom:So I definitely look at that as a big hire, but the more valuable
Omar Zenhom:the higher, the risky it is.
Omar Zenhom:let's say you hire To develop a mobile app for you.
Omar Zenhom:Okay.
Omar Zenhom:Maybe you're not a developer and you, you can do yourself to hire somebody.
Omar Zenhom:I'm not saying don't hire this person to do the mobile app
Omar Zenhom:because you need, the work.
Omar Zenhom:But I'm saying that the risk of that hire is far greater than hiring
Omar Zenhom:somebody to manage your inbox.
Omar Zenhom:Because what's the worst they can do send the email by mistake or not reply to
Omar Zenhom:somebody, whatever, like it can be solved.
Omar Zenhom:you can reply to the puzzle.
Omar Zenhom:Sorry.
Omar Zenhom:That was a mistake.
Omar Zenhom:My EA made a mistake that dah, dah, dah, and it's not a disaster.
Omar Zenhom:if somebody's spending.
Omar Zenhom:10, 20, $30,000 building a mobile app for you.
Omar Zenhom:And then it doesn't work, fill the bugs and your customer's
Omar Zenhom:upset and you can't make money.
Omar Zenhom:It's a huge risk, that hires totally different.
Omar Zenhom:And that's why I say you should ramp up to it because you're going to learn the
Omar Zenhom:skills to know how to make a good hire in those areas that you're not familiar with.
Omar Zenhom:Like engineering, for example, how do you hire a great engineer?
Omar Zenhom:If you're an engineer yourself through the process of making
Omar Zenhom:smaller hires, does that make sense?
Omar Zenhom:There?
Sarah St John:Yeah.
Sarah St John:So it kind of talked about scaling, I guess there, and, good hires, bad hires.
Sarah St John:Can you go a little bit more into that things to look out for?
Sarah St John:And, and of course the process of scaling as well though.
Sarah St John:That's probably two different
Omar Zenhom:questions, but I kind of see hiring in two buckets.
Omar Zenhom:there are hires that I can do myself without any help, because
Omar Zenhom:I am familiar with the skill.
Omar Zenhom:I know what it takes to be good at it.
Omar Zenhom:let's say for example, I was looking to hire a great web
Omar Zenhom:designer because I used to do that.
Omar Zenhom:So I know what I'm looking for.
Omar Zenhom:I know.
Omar Zenhom:what is good and what's not good, So that's one bucket.
Omar Zenhom:The other bucket is areas I don't know about.
Omar Zenhom:I'm not good at this, for example, I've never composed music, but
Omar Zenhom:I've needed somebody to create a great music piece for me, original.
Omar Zenhom:I really don't know until they actually do the work.
Omar Zenhom:It's hard for me to really know.
Omar Zenhom:Maybe, You're not a good software engineer and you're looking to hire somebody
Omar Zenhom:who's technical so they could do that.
Omar Zenhom:That's a separate bucket.
Omar Zenhom:And actually what I recommend.
Omar Zenhom:For that type of bucket is actually to get a consultant by hire
Omar Zenhom:somebody who's really expensive.
Omar Zenhom:Okay.
Omar Zenhom:But they're going to work for you very shortly.
Omar Zenhom:This is what we did that really worked.
Omar Zenhom:So basically they're like an advisor, right.
Omar Zenhom:And you'd get there's ton of them on Upwork and freelancer
Omar Zenhom:and things like that.
Omar Zenhom:Technical advisor or somebody like that.
Omar Zenhom:And they'll charge 120, 130, $150 an hour, they're going
Omar Zenhom:to spend three or four hours.
Omar Zenhom:You're going to spend 500 bucks, but they're going to save you
Omar Zenhom:so much money and time because they know how to find experts.
Omar Zenhom:Number one, they have a great network.
Omar Zenhom:these are people that have worked for all the big tech companies.
Omar Zenhom:And they're just looking for a little side gig, something interesting.
Omar Zenhom:They like helping the small entrepreneur or the.
Omar Zenhom:They're just looking for something to do on the side, on the weekend cause report.
Omar Zenhom:they're only really priced for that much because they need to express their value.
Omar Zenhom:So.
Omar Zenhom:For you, you're getting somebody who is going to be able to vet somebody great.
Omar Zenhom:And they have a great network, so they can, they might know somebody that
Omar Zenhom:can just, Hey, I know this new junior engineer in my company is looking
Omar Zenhom:for part-time work, blah, blah, blah.
Omar Zenhom:You'd be perfect for this project.
Omar Zenhom:They're going to save you a whole bunch of time.
Omar Zenhom:They're going to be able to jump in and go through CVS for you.
Omar Zenhom:They're gonna be able to do the interviews for you so they can evaluate
Omar Zenhom:the qualifications and their job is basically to be the technical.
Omar Zenhom:Evaluator of this higher.
Omar Zenhom:these types of people in every field writers and designers and finance
Omar Zenhom:people, you know, their CFOs and companies, and they they'd love to
Omar Zenhom:be an advisor just for on the side.
Omar Zenhom:And there's tons of them on these freelance sites.
Omar Zenhom:And what's great about this.
Omar Zenhom:They will take care of the technical stuff, but your job as a leader
Omar Zenhom:of the company, still to take care of the cultural fit, make sure
Omar Zenhom:that this person is a good fit for your company, a good fit for you.
Omar Zenhom:At the end of the day, your company culture is an
Omar Zenhom:extension of your personality.
Omar Zenhom:Really?
Omar Zenhom:The founders personnel.
Omar Zenhom:Do you want to hang out with this person day in and day?
Omar Zenhom:How would you want to have a drink with them, a coffee with them later on?
Omar Zenhom:if you're not working, you know, you're going to, you spend a lot of time with
Omar Zenhom:your team when you're working a lot of time in your life and your day,
Omar Zenhom:you know, you might as well enjoy it.
Omar Zenhom:So that's a good indicator.
Omar Zenhom:If this is somebody that will fit with the rest of you working with you and.
Sarah St John:So it's almost kind of like you're hiring someone
Sarah St John:temporarily to look for people to hire.
Omar Zenhom:Yeah.
Omar Zenhom:And it's a really inexpensive way to do it because recruiters will charge, 10,
Omar Zenhom:20% of the annual salary of that person.
Omar Zenhom:And, you know, it's really expensive.
Omar Zenhom:So you could just get an advice.
Omar Zenhom:That will jump in and do the things that you're uncomfortable doing, like,
Omar Zenhom:evaluating a candidates application coming up with a job description.
Omar Zenhom:you can just frankly say this, this person, this advisor,
Omar Zenhom:Hey, I'm trying to do X, Y, Z.
Omar Zenhom:I don't know how to word this.
Omar Zenhom:I don't know what kind of qualifications they need.
Omar Zenhom:I don't know what they need to do.
Omar Zenhom:They can and come up with a short job description so you
Omar Zenhom:can post it on the job board.
Omar Zenhom:They can tell you what job boards are good.
Omar Zenhom:you're going to spend, you know, 5, 6, 7 hours with this person, but they're
Omar Zenhom:going to get you a higher, that's going to save you so much more money and you're
Omar Zenhom:going to get great value, great talent.
Sarah St John:how does one know when it's time and this might not
Sarah St John:apply to all businesses to, instead of having freelancers work for you.
Sarah St John:Then switching over to, having full time, not just in the sense that they
Sarah St John:work 40 hours, but like, you know, they get the benefits and all of that.
Sarah St John:Like your standard, what, people are used to.
Sarah St John:Right.
Sarah St John:Even if it's a remote team though,
Omar Zenhom:A lot of it has to do with the finances of the business, how healthy
Omar Zenhom:you are in terms of what you can afford.
Omar Zenhom:never try to stretch yourself.
Omar Zenhom:if your business is where it's at, like, Hey, I can only hire
Omar Zenhom:freelancers or contractors.
Omar Zenhom:Cause I can't afford to give everybody healthcare or give everybody,
Omar Zenhom:you know any other perks that I want to give them That's okay.
Omar Zenhom:You don't have to be something you're not, I'm always about profit loss.
Omar Zenhom:I'm always about making sure you're profitable.
Omar Zenhom:Don't spend more, most businesses don't go out of business because
Omar Zenhom:they They don't make enough money.
Omar Zenhom:It's because they overspend most businesses fail because
Omar Zenhom:they spend too much money.
Omar Zenhom:that's something you should always keep an eye on so that I
Omar Zenhom:would preface that just do it.
Omar Zenhom:If you're comfortable.
Omar Zenhom:Second of all.
Omar Zenhom:Is, this is your business, right?
Omar Zenhom:You could do what you want.
Omar Zenhom:One of my favorite books is anything you want by Derek Sivers.
Omar Zenhom:And it was kind of an eye-opener for me, because it was like, Yeah,
Omar Zenhom:I can just create my own utopia.
Omar Zenhom:No one is telling you your business has to be in a certain way.
Omar Zenhom:If you want to create a hybrid approach where you give a great leave policy
Omar Zenhom:and you have other benefits other than, healthcare, or you give them
Omar Zenhom:a little bit more money, so they can sort out their own healthcare.
Omar Zenhom:That's up to you, your business, you do what you want, and you're not
Omar Zenhom:less of a business or, anything else.
Omar Zenhom:So that's the other thing I would convey, but one of the things
Omar Zenhom:that we do in our business, I can only share what has worked for us.
Omar Zenhom:At some point, I need to show the person who's on my team, a level of commitment.
Omar Zenhom:I need to say I'm committed to you.
Omar Zenhom:I'm investing in you.
Omar Zenhom:I need you to invest in me and my vision, Really a founder of a company is, just
Omar Zenhom:really a glorified coach of a team.
Omar Zenhom:And I learned this, just play basketball.
Omar Zenhom:When I was younger as a coach, you got to get these people.
Omar Zenhom:Sold on the vision that they can win.
Omar Zenhom:You got to get these people to work together somehow to listen to what
Omar Zenhom:you're saying, to like follow the instructions, to follow the game plan.
Omar Zenhom:as a business owner, that's really what you're doing.
Omar Zenhom:You're, getting a bunch of strangers together and you're
Omar Zenhom:saying, Hey, we need to get.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:This is what we're trying to get to.
Omar Zenhom:This is how I think we can get there in a nice, efficient way.
Omar Zenhom:Are you with me?
Omar Zenhom:Are you willing to sacrifice and do the things I'm asking you to do so we can
Omar Zenhom:get there, I'm simplifying this, but this is really what's happening here.
Omar Zenhom:So in order for me, to ask of that.
Omar Zenhom:It's a pretty big ask.
Omar Zenhom:I need to say, Hey, I'm committed to you.
Omar Zenhom:I'm investing in you.
Omar Zenhom:This is what I want to say to you.
Omar Zenhom:So, and this could be a form of a contract, like an annual contract
Omar Zenhom:and saying, Hey, I want you to hang on for X amount of time.
Omar Zenhom:This is, could be an increment scheme where it's like, you
Omar Zenhom:get evaluated after a year.
Omar Zenhom:And then you get, you know, three to 5% increase in your salary.
Omar Zenhom:It gotta be something where you.
Omar Zenhom:I am investing in you please invest in us.
Omar Zenhom:And what we do is we actually start everybody as a quote unquote freelancer,
Omar Zenhom:where they're basically on probation for three months, because you really
Omar Zenhom:don't know if somebody is great at what they do until they actually do it.
Omar Zenhom:And they could be great at what they do, but they.
Omar Zenhom:Do so well in your environment, in your workspace and the way
Omar Zenhom:you work in the way in your level of, standards or whatever it is.
Omar Zenhom:So I always encourage people to have that probational period where they
Omar Zenhom:get evaluated for three months and then if they pass that, that's when
Omar Zenhom:you connect, send like a long-term contract and say, Hey, this is
Omar Zenhom:where where I want to commit to you.
Omar Zenhom:And then it goes both ways.
Omar Zenhom:So will you say, Hey, after three months, if you feel like
Omar Zenhom:this is not a good fit for you.
Omar Zenhom:We can part ways, no harm, no foul, all good, and it's a good way because
Omar Zenhom:you allow them to really feel what it's like to work for you and to, and
Omar Zenhom:to be managed in, your setting and your team and all that kind of stuff.
Omar Zenhom:So that's kind of the procedure I have found to work for us.
Omar Zenhom:But.
Omar Zenhom:I've learned throughout the years that there you Ghana some way
Omar Zenhom:commit to them somehow you gotta make sure they understand that,
Omar Zenhom:Hey I'm committing to your success.
Omar Zenhom:And a lot of that has to do with their work environment.
Omar Zenhom:if I look back in the days when I was in a job before entrepreneurial.
Omar Zenhom:The jobs I hated had nothing to do with my salary, had nothing to do.
Omar Zenhom:My benefits had nothing to do with how much leave I have.
Omar Zenhom:I didn't even know how much leave I had Had to do with, was
Omar Zenhom:I happy to go to work every day?
Omar Zenhom:Was I being challenged as I was growing?
Omar Zenhom:Did I respect my superiors?
Omar Zenhom:Like my managers did.
Omar Zenhom:I feel like I was a part of the success of that organization?
Omar Zenhom:Did I feel validated people actually recognize my.
Omar Zenhom:These are all things you could do for free, These are all things you
Omar Zenhom:could do for free as a business owner.
Omar Zenhom:And that's what people have to understand is that there's so
Omar Zenhom:much you can do on a budget.
Omar Zenhom:There's so much you can do to, just praise how often have you praised every
Omar Zenhom:teammate on your, team just for doing their job or doing it excellently.
Omar Zenhom:So these are just some of the things I've learned along the way that.
Sarah St John:That's very interesting to get your input on that and
Sarah St John:your experiences and whatnot.
Sarah St John:Now when it comes to hiring someone, what are some things we should
Sarah St John:look out for, to avoid a bad hire?
Sarah St John:And then if you do end up hiring a bad hire, what's the best approach
Sarah St John:to, either combat that and make them a good hire or, Give him the boot, I
Omar Zenhom:guess that's a, that's a good question.
Omar Zenhom:So it all starts in your first conversations with them.
Omar Zenhom:Anytime you're hiring for some, position, As the business owner, as a person
Omar Zenhom:who's making the hiring decision, you got to see this as almost like
Omar Zenhom:you're a detective solving a case.
Omar Zenhom:All right.
Omar Zenhom:I know this sounds a little bit weird, but.
Omar Zenhom:In order for a detective to make a decision, if this person is the
Omar Zenhom:killer or not, they need evidence.
Omar Zenhom:They need facts.
Omar Zenhom:they need alibis, they need information, So I always go into every
Omar Zenhom:interview or I tell them before the interview, I say, guys, whoever's
Omar Zenhom:going to be interviewed today.
Omar Zenhom:I maybe I send an email to all the candidates or whatever.
Omar Zenhom:this is a time for you to show me what.
Omar Zenhom:This is not the time to be humble.
Omar Zenhom:It's time to brag the seller to tell me all the things you did,
Omar Zenhom:that is going to prove that you're qualified for this job or that
Omar Zenhom:you'll do amazing job at our company.
Omar Zenhom:If you do not give me the information to make a decision, I cannot make a decision.
Omar Zenhom:I make it clear.
Omar Zenhom:This is how you win.
Omar Zenhom:Unfortunately, a lot of people show up to interviews and they just can't.
Omar Zenhom:I'm not sure what they're looking for.
Omar Zenhom:And I just flat out say, Hey, I'm looking for actual stories, actual events, actual
Omar Zenhom:tasks, projects that you worked on, that you have learned from that experience
Omar Zenhom:is going to be able to contribute to your time here at my company.
Omar Zenhom:How you think that you can influence and help the team in different ways.
Omar Zenhom:I asked for specifics, So if this is even before we even talked to each other
Omar Zenhom:on a call I don't want to be pulling teeth, If I have to keep on praying and
Omar Zenhom:praying, this is over you gotta want it.
Omar Zenhom:You gotta one of the job, right?
Omar Zenhom:So you have to present yourself, you have to present the information, the
Omar Zenhom:evidence in order for me to say, yeah, this person is a great candidate, so
Omar Zenhom:that it just prepares the candidate to be at their best To bring their best
Omar Zenhom:self, so to speak to the interview.
Omar Zenhom:in the interview, I'm always asking for examples.
Omar Zenhom:A lot of people, unfortunately just because it's just been their nature of
Omar Zenhom:the culture of hiring and interviews, they don't actually give examples.
Omar Zenhom:They actually say, in this case I would do this.
Omar Zenhom:No, I don't care about what I, I want to know what you.
Omar Zenhom:So, for example, like tell me how you would deal with a conflict with a, with
Omar Zenhom:a superior or colleague and maybe you could tell me a story from the past.
Omar Zenhom:Well, in a situation like this, I usually like to, I just stop them.
Omar Zenhom:It's it's I don't want to know what you usually do.
Omar Zenhom:I don't want to know the theory.
Omar Zenhom:I want you to tell me a story.
Omar Zenhom:When you had a conflict with somebody and tell me what happened, tell me
Omar Zenhom:you don't have to mention names, but you can say, you know what happened?
Omar Zenhom:and I find that I have to do this three or four times in interview.
Omar Zenhom:Like I said, thanks really appreciate what you're saying right now.
Omar Zenhom:But I need a real example.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:Because a lot of people will hire people based on what they say.
Omar Zenhom:And now what actually happened.
Omar Zenhom:You need to know what happened again.
Omar Zenhom:You're kind of like a detective trying to get the evidence, right?
Omar Zenhom:when you have an interview, a candidate, it's just telling you all
Omar Zenhom:these great stories, all these great examples of when they failed, when
Omar Zenhom:they've learned, when they've improved something in their company, you now
Omar Zenhom:have credible evidence that they can carry that on into your business.
Omar Zenhom:So that's my advice is just like, that's the first step in the interview.
Omar Zenhom:Now, when they're in your company, some red flags are they are basically not.
Omar Zenhom:Jumping on the grenade is what we call it.
Omar Zenhom:Right?
Omar Zenhom:So jumping on that grenade, meaning like when something is wrong or something needs
Omar Zenhom:to be fixed or mistakes happen, they don't just, they're ready to jump on it and be
Omar Zenhom:like, Hey, let's fix this, let's do this.
Omar Zenhom:They take initiative.
Omar Zenhom:And, they're willing to roll up their sleeves and any situation,
Omar Zenhom:say for example, you hired somebody to be a producer on your show and a
Omar Zenhom:show didn't get published on time.
Omar Zenhom:they don't point fingers or like up, let me go in and check that out.
Omar Zenhom:I'm going to fix it right now, but okay.
Omar Zenhom:Then I do a post-mortem.
Omar Zenhom:Why did that happen?
Omar Zenhom:Oh, I think I didn't set the reminder on my calendar.
Omar Zenhom:This is why they take ownership.
Omar Zenhom:They take responsibility and they jump on the issue.
Omar Zenhom:A lot of people that talk a good game in an interview and don't perform
Omar Zenhom:the job are the ones that kind of.
Omar Zenhom:Lean back into the bushes, like Homer Simpson, right?
Omar Zenhom:Like they don't really, they don't exist anymore when the problem, when
Omar Zenhom:the quote-unquote poopoo hits the fan.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:So the point here is, is that you need people that are
Omar Zenhom:willing to take responsibility.
Omar Zenhom:And one of the things that we've talk about a lot in our company is
Omar Zenhom:that responsibility is not fault.
Omar Zenhom:first of all, as a business owner, you are responsible for everything.
Omar Zenhom:Okay.
Omar Zenhom:It doesn't mean it's your fault, right?
Omar Zenhom:It could be somebody whose mistake, somebody did something else, but by
Omar Zenhom:saying you're responsible and every team member in your team says, I am responsible
Omar Zenhom:for what happens under my watch.
Omar Zenhom:It means.
Omar Zenhom:You're not going to wait for somebody else to do something.
Omar Zenhom:It's my responsibility.
Omar Zenhom:I gotta do something to fix it.
Omar Zenhom:you're going to take the initiative to do it.
Omar Zenhom:You're going to take an initiative to improve it, right.
Omar Zenhom:If it's my responsibility to have excellent customer support when
Omar Zenhom:I'm answering as customer, and the customer gives me a bad rating.
Omar Zenhom:And that's our responsibility.
Omar Zenhom:Okay.
Omar Zenhom:It's something happened here that they're not upset about how can I
Omar Zenhom:follow up with them and make sure that they're a little bit happier.
Omar Zenhom:So that's a great thing that you can encourage in your team
Omar Zenhom:is just take responsibility.
Omar Zenhom:Don't worry about whose fault it is, because when you take responsibility,
Omar Zenhom:things just improve and you start to grow.
Sarah St John:Yeah, that's awesome.
Sarah St John:That gives me some clarity on, when that day comes, what to look
Sarah St John:for, what to make sure the good.
Sarah St John:The positive things and negative things.
Sarah St John:Also I feel like I've learned a lot so far, as far as making, a
Sarah St John:first hire and then scaling and growing from there and, the process
Sarah St John:and what to look for and whatnot.
Sarah St John:Was there anything else that you wanted to go over that we had.
Omar Zenhom:I would encourage anybody who's listening who is
Omar Zenhom:maybe a solopreneur and they're like, I want to make a first hire.
Omar Zenhom:I'm not sure if I can afford it.
Omar Zenhom:I don't know what's going on.
Omar Zenhom:Right.
Omar Zenhom:My advice would be like, It's actually not as expensive as you think it is.
Omar Zenhom:And you should just see this as a professional development exercise,
Omar Zenhom:you would buy an online course for $2,000 to learn something.
Omar Zenhom:See this as a $2,000 investment in you're growing your business, Or.
Omar Zenhom:You don't have to hire some full-time.
Omar Zenhom:You can hire somebody part-time you can hire a virtual assistant out of
Omar Zenhom:the Philippines on online jobs pH for two, $300 a month for 20 hours a week.
Omar Zenhom:and they can take off so many, $10 tasks off your, plate.
Omar Zenhom:They can create your SOP is they can, at the very least, do all
Omar Zenhom:these menial tasks that you don't want to do in your personal life.
Omar Zenhom:If you want to like, order gifts for somebody or, book a flight or whatever
Omar Zenhom:it is, but the point here is that.
Omar Zenhom:It's actually not that expensive.
Omar Zenhom:And if you say to yourself, well, I'll do what I can afford it.
Omar Zenhom:Well, say that now, how much money are you making now?
Omar Zenhom:Let's say, for example, your business is making $5,000 a month
Omar Zenhom:and you're like, okay, that's how much I'm making every month.
Omar Zenhom:As soon as you make 5,200.
Omar Zenhom:You should make that higher right now you can afford it.
Omar Zenhom:Right?
Omar Zenhom:So stick to your word and see us in the next exercise of learning.
Omar Zenhom:How to be a good manager at learning how to be a good leader.
Omar Zenhom:you can be good with money.
Omar Zenhom:If you don't have money, you can be a good leader.
Omar Zenhom:If you don't have.
Omar Zenhom:you just won't learn how to do it if you don't have the
Omar Zenhom:prerequisite of people delete.
Omar Zenhom:So that's what I learned over the years and it's okay if
Omar Zenhom:they don't work out, it's okay.
Omar Zenhom:If you learn a hard lesson, this is why we have these procedures in
Omar Zenhom:these safety nets and the probational periods, all that kind of stuff.
Omar Zenhom:And at the end of the day, that's why I say start with SOP is because if they
Omar Zenhom:leave, and they didn't work out, at least you have something that's left behind,
Omar Zenhom:that's worth of value that you can, build.
Sarah St John:I love that comparison of, if you're going to spend $2,000
Sarah St John:or even 500 on a course, which people do a lot, why not spend that on a
Sarah St John:virtual assistant at least to start And how you can view it as a learning
Sarah St John:experience or an experiment, even if it doesn't work out, like you said.
Sarah St John:that's awesome.
Sarah St John:Well, I really appreciate your time today and all your insight.
Sarah St John:I'll have show notes at the Sarah St.
Sarah St John:john.com forward slash Omar, but then people can find you directly.
Sarah St John:Omar Zen home.com that Z E N H O M also webinarninja.com.
Sarah St John:That's your software for webinars.
Sarah St John:And if anyone's interested, you can go back it's somewhere within the
Sarah St John:first seven episodes of the podcast.
Sarah St John:And listen to that one about webinar ninja, and then your
Sarah St John:podcast is at a hundred.
Sarah St John:M B a.net.
Sarah St John:thank you so much for your time.
Sarah St John:I really appreciate
Omar Zenhom:it.
Omar Zenhom:Thanks.