How to Hire the Right Team Members to Grow and Scale Your Business with Omar Zenhom

Omar Zenhom, co-founder and CEO of Webinar Ninja, talks to us about bootstrapping his business, and how to effectively grow and scale your company by hiring team members.

https://webinarninja.com/sarah

Transcript
Sarah St John:

welcome to the Fargo preneur podcast.

Sarah St John:

I'm your host, Sarah St.

Sarah St John:

John and my guest today is the co-founder and CEO of webinar ninja, and the

Sarah St John:

host of the a hundred dollar MBA show.

Sarah St John:

But today he is going to talk to us about how to make sure we are

Sarah St John:

hiring the right team members.

Sarah St John:

Welcome to the show, Omar.

Omar Zenhom:

Hey, Sarah.

Omar Zenhom:

Great to be here again.

Omar Zenhom:

And awesome to talk to you.

Sarah St John:

we were just talking a little bit before we got started

Sarah St John:

here that you were one of the first, I think seven episodes of

Sarah St John:the frugal preneur, back in:Sarah St John:

So warms

Omar Zenhom:

my heart or was I hard cause to be one of the first

Sarah St John:

well, awesome.

Sarah St John:

Well, I know you want to talk a little bit about.

Sarah St John:

the cost of a bad hire and how to hire the best talent and

Sarah St John:

how to scale and all of that.

Sarah St John:

First I'm kind of curious, I know, you know, you got your software

Sarah St John:

program, webinar, ninja, and you have the podcast and all that.

Sarah St John:

So what specifically, have you always kind of been in this area Of scaling

Sarah St John:

and growing a team and stuff, or is this a new interest of yours?

Omar Zenhom:

Well I just been asked about this a lot recently in the last

Omar Zenhom:

couple of years because of the pandemic, because people are hiring remotely

Omar Zenhom:

because people are trying to find new ways to manage people remotely.

Omar Zenhom:

I learned a lot along the way over the years because our business is self-funded.

Omar Zenhom:

And money needs to go a long way.

Omar Zenhom:

Mistakes cost a lot.

Omar Zenhom:

So you gotta make sure that you do the right thing.

Omar Zenhom:

So I've made my share of mistakes and I just feel like it's just my

Omar Zenhom:

duty to kind of share through my experiences, what works, what doesn't.

Omar Zenhom:

A lot of people get nervous when it comes to making their first few hires and then.

Omar Zenhom:

As your team grows it gets a little bit more high stakes, cause it's a lot easier

Omar Zenhom:

for two or three people to get along.

Omar Zenhom:

10 people, 20 people, you need to make sure there's a cultural established

Omar Zenhom:

and the person you're hiring is actually a good cultural fit because

Omar Zenhom:

in my experience most people don't work out, not because of their skills.

Omar Zenhom:

It's just because of their attitude or they're just not a good fit

Omar Zenhom:

for the team or fit for what your customers need, all that kind of stuff.

Omar Zenhom:

So, yeah, it's just been something I've been learning along the way and been

Omar Zenhom:

called upon just because of the climate.

Sarah St John:

Yeah, that makes sense with COVID and the shutdown and just everyone,

Sarah St John:

going online and working remotely.

Sarah St John:

And so how does one know when it's time to hire someone?

Sarah St John:

if there are solo preneurs, how do they decide when the right time is

Omar Zenhom:

I think one of the hardest things as an entrepreneur is making that

Omar Zenhom:

first hire that transition because in the beginning, you're just hustling.

Omar Zenhom:

You're doing everything yourself, which is actually good.

Omar Zenhom:

I actually encourage people to do everything themselves because they need

Omar Zenhom:

to understand how every aspect of their business works because they're going

Omar Zenhom:

to have to hire for it in the future.

Omar Zenhom:

But that shift of making a hire your first hire is.

Omar Zenhom:

That mental shift of, I shouldn't be doing everything right.

Omar Zenhom:

An entrepreneur really has an idea and wants to see the

Omar Zenhom:

idea, reach its potential.

Omar Zenhom:

And if it's a big idea or it's an idea that gets bigger and bigger,

Omar Zenhom:

you just can't do it alone.

Omar Zenhom:

You're going to, in order for you to compete in order for you to do it

Omar Zenhom:

at a higher scale or a higher level, you're going to need to get some help.

Omar Zenhom:

And that's a mental shift that first has to come into play.

Omar Zenhom:

And I feel like that the best way I was able to.

Omar Zenhom:

Mentally is how much is my time worth is really asking yourself that question,

Omar Zenhom:

how much is an hour worth for you?

Omar Zenhom:

we all should have an hourly rate for our time, because you can use

Omar Zenhom:

that rate in making decisions of, if you want to do this endeavor,

Omar Zenhom:

do you want to do this partnership?

Omar Zenhom:

Do you want to work on this project?

Omar Zenhom:

Because there's going to be opportunities everywhere.

Omar Zenhom:

And if we just say yes, CSS to everything, our calendar gets.

Omar Zenhom:

I always say that it's easy to see.

Omar Zenhom:

Yes.

Omar Zenhom:

Because that's future Omar's problem.

Omar Zenhom:

oh yeah, I'll do that.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

But future Omar comes around and be like, Hey, why'd you burden me with this.

Omar Zenhom:

All right.

Omar Zenhom:

So the point I'm making here is that we all have to value

Omar Zenhom:

our time and realize that.

Omar Zenhom:

Most precious commodity.

Omar Zenhom:

you can always make more money.

Omar Zenhom:

You can make more connections.

Omar Zenhom:

You just can't make with more time.

Omar Zenhom:

you have a certain amount of time surmount hours in the day, certain amount of

Omar Zenhom:

days in the year, amount of years in your life, that's it that's the bank.

Omar Zenhom:

So in order for you to get more done and get more accomplished, you're

Omar Zenhom:

going to need to hire somebody.

Omar Zenhom:

You need to grow your team and your.

Omar Zenhom:

Basically create a multiple of your time by making a hire.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's really the first step I would say is making that mental

Omar Zenhom:

shift and realizing, my time is the most valuable thing here.

Omar Zenhom:

Yes.

Omar Zenhom:

I can do everything myself, but should you do everything yourself?

Omar Zenhom:

Is the question.

Omar Zenhom:

That's the first step.

Omar Zenhom:

I would say the second step I would say is getting over the hump

Omar Zenhom:

of the understanding that yeah.

Omar Zenhom:

If I hire somebody, this is very common, by the way.

Omar Zenhom:

Yeah.

Omar Zenhom:

If I hire somebody, they're just not going to do it the way I do it.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

They're just not gonna, it's not going to be as good as

Omar Zenhom:

the way I write my blog posts.

Omar Zenhom:

So I was going to be as good as the way I find images on the internet

Omar Zenhom:

and cultivate this great thumbnail.

Omar Zenhom:

My answer to that is you're right.

Omar Zenhom:

But there's a cost to everything you can't just continue to do everything yourself.

Omar Zenhom:

So what if that person you hired does it at 80% of what you would do or 90.

Omar Zenhom:

That's still good enough for you to pull off what you're trying to pull off.

Omar Zenhom:

And that time you're buying is gold.

Omar Zenhom:

remember time is priceless, right?

Omar Zenhom:

It can't buy more time.

Omar Zenhom:

So if I hire somebody and they do it at 90% of what I would do,

Omar Zenhom:

and I just swallow my pride and realize, okay, no, one's like me.

Omar Zenhom:

And by the way, overtime.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm not that great.

Omar Zenhom:

I think it's better, but really there's lots of people out there

Omar Zenhom:

that could do better than me.

Omar Zenhom:

And you learn that over time through a few hires, but those are

Omar Zenhom:

the first two steps I would say.

Sarah St John:

And how does one determine, don't you call

Sarah St John:

it the effective, hourly rate?

Sarah St John:

So EHR, I guess I mean obviously if you're charging per hour, say you're

Sarah St John:

consulting or coaching any charge, let's say a hundred, 200 an hour, then you can

Sarah St John:

kind of, that's easier to figure out, say it's not as cut and dry or obvious.

Sarah St John:

Is that, how does one figure

Omar Zenhom:

that out?

Omar Zenhom:

Yeah.

Omar Zenhom:

An easy way to do it.

Omar Zenhom:

And I learned this from Nepal is that you look at your total revenue,

Omar Zenhom:

how much money you made this month.

Omar Zenhom:

say for example, you made $10,000 in the month, right?

Omar Zenhom:

And you work 40 hours a week.

Omar Zenhom:

That's four weeks in a month.

Omar Zenhom:

That's 160 hours.

Omar Zenhom:

So just divide that and then.

Omar Zenhom:

The reason why you want to double it.

Omar Zenhom:

So you want to, that's not how much you're worth, that's how much you're making.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

And you have potential.

Omar Zenhom:

The third reason is that you want it to hurt a little bit.

Omar Zenhom:

You want it to feel a little bit crazy, for example, when I first

Omar Zenhom:

started doing this, my allery rate was a thousand dollars and I

Omar Zenhom:

was like, that sounds ridiculous.

Omar Zenhom:

What, a thousand bucks, who charges a thousand dollars an hour, so when you get

Omar Zenhom:

an opportunity and you say this is going to take me five hours, that's $5,000.

Omar Zenhom:

That's worth $5,000.

Omar Zenhom:

over time you should reevaluate your hourly rate.

Omar Zenhom:

I know that somebody like Neval, his hourly rate is like

Omar Zenhom:

a hundred thousand dollars.

Omar Zenhom:

Like he puts it at that high because he knows that's the value of his time.

Omar Zenhom:

it's not just working time.

Omar Zenhom:

Remember time is fluid.

Omar Zenhom:

It'd be time for you to relax time for you to read time for you to improve

Omar Zenhom:

time for you to be with your family.

Omar Zenhom:

That's all time, So how much is that worth to you?

Omar Zenhom:

So it should be a stretch.

Omar Zenhom:

That's why I say, take your, revenue divided by the number of hours

Omar Zenhom:

a month and then, double it just so you can feel like, oh, I don't

Omar Zenhom:

feel comfortable with that number.

Omar Zenhom:

but that's the way you kind of really start to value your.

Sarah St John:

That's interesting.

Sarah St John:

Yeah.

Sarah St John:

So everyone listening that you have a homework assignment now

Sarah St John:

to figure out your hourly rate?

Sarah St John:

I think I had heard that one time, but I couldn't remember exactly like, it

Sarah St John:

was almost like a formula or something.

Sarah St John:

I couldn't remember how that worked.

Sarah St John:

Exactly.

Sarah St John:

But, when you're.

Sarah St John:

Starting out.

Sarah St John:

And you hire someone, just say one person, like a virtual assistant, maybe.

Sarah St John:

I know there's a bunch of freelance websites out there and whatnot.

Sarah St John:

And I know if you hire someone in the Philippines, apparently you only have

Sarah St John:

to pay them so much because their cost of living is a lot lower and all that.

Sarah St John:

what are your thoughts on

Omar Zenhom:

all of that?

Omar Zenhom:

I think that's a sound idea.

Omar Zenhom:

And I think there's a lot of great talent, not only in the Philippines, but other

Omar Zenhom:

parts of the world even south America, if you're in, the U S and you want to a time

Omar Zenhom:

zone, that's close by central America.

Omar Zenhom:

Eastern Europe, there's a lot of great English speaking, highly qualified.

Omar Zenhom:

Different areas, not just VAs, engineers, designers, writers.

Omar Zenhom:

there's lots of options out there.

Omar Zenhom:

A lot of people are actually quite surprised at how far their money can go.

Omar Zenhom:

So my first suggestion, when it comes to that in order for me to express

Omar Zenhom:

them, I'll tell the whole story.

Omar Zenhom:

So when I started webinar ninja seven years ago one of the best pieces of advice

Omar Zenhom:

I got was try to surround yourself with people that are a little bit ahead of

Omar Zenhom:

you, where you want to be in five years.

Omar Zenhom:

Because you'll learn what you need to do.

Omar Zenhom:

So I started doing that.

Omar Zenhom:

I started hanging out with other SAS companies.

Omar Zenhom:

I looked up to, I got to know the founders of beer companies and I would

Omar Zenhom:

go to the same conferences and just learn about what are they talking about?

Omar Zenhom:

What are the challenges are having so that I can prepare my business for that.

Omar Zenhom:

And one of the things I learned is that at the end of the day, the value of

Omar Zenhom:

a business is all about the systems.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

So when, say for example, I wanted to buy a company.

Omar Zenhom:

The first thing I would do is like, I want to know, like, what are all your systems,

Omar Zenhom:

how do you answer support tickets?

Omar Zenhom:

How do you develop a piece of a feature or a product idea?

Omar Zenhom:

what is a system you have when you have leave policy and

Omar Zenhom:

somebody's going on vacation?

Omar Zenhom:

How do you make sure not too many people are off.

Omar Zenhom:

I want to know how this is run because if I'm going to buy it,

Omar Zenhom:

I want to be able to take over.

Omar Zenhom:

So what does, how does this relate to your first hire?

Omar Zenhom:

Well, what I learned is that the first thing you want your

Omar Zenhom:

first hire to do like a VA.

Omar Zenhom:

To document all your systems, If you don't have a system, it's time to create

Omar Zenhom:

a system, The reason why we do this, like, so for example, like when I, we hired

Omar Zenhom:

our first virtual assistant or executive assistant we needed help with the podcast.

Omar Zenhom:

So for example, we had a procedure.

Omar Zenhom:

We have a spreadsheet where we have all the topics of the podcast and we

Omar Zenhom:

have the sponsors in the spreadsheet.

Omar Zenhom:

And then from there we need to record the episode.

Omar Zenhom:

And from the episode we edit it and when it gets edited, it gets reviewed.

Omar Zenhom:

Somebody listened back to it and then they'll show notes that get written

Omar Zenhom:

and then it gets so WordPress blog posts and like there's all these steps.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

We all know it.

Omar Zenhom:

I know it because I did it all myself.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

It doesn't really have any value in my head.

Omar Zenhom:

But if I had it in a document, that's valuable, somebody would buy that.

Omar Zenhom:

that procedure.

Omar Zenhom:

So the first thing we do.

Omar Zenhom:

This is, I would do a screen, a screencast of all the steps

Omar Zenhom:

involved in publishing a blog post.

Omar Zenhom:

I need you to create an SOP with a standard operating procedure

Omar Zenhom:

and you to write a document.

Omar Zenhom:

And basically we've created a bank of SOP for every little

Omar Zenhom:

thing we do in our business.

Omar Zenhom:

So anytime I give them a task, the first step is the create the SOP, not

Omar Zenhom:

to do the task, create the SOP first and then follow the SOP to do the task.

Omar Zenhom:

And that's a good way to test that.

Omar Zenhom:

foolproof what happens here is that now you got all these great SLPs that

Omar Zenhom:

they're creating, and then now you can hire people to do different tasks and

Omar Zenhom:

be like, Hey, just follow this SOP.

Omar Zenhom:

We have the instructions right here.

Omar Zenhom:

And this is just fantastic because.

Omar Zenhom:

There's no ambiguity on how you're supposed to do something, how you're

Omar Zenhom:

supposed to do anything in a business.

Omar Zenhom:

And then when you hire somebody, they can always go back to that reference.

Omar Zenhom:

So really what that first hire does is that they're, documenting your IP.

Omar Zenhom:

You're documenting what's in your head, all the procedures, all

Omar Zenhom:

the things that you're doing.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's an out of your head and it's in a word doc literally, or a Google

Omar Zenhom:

doc, and it's easy for you to follow.

Omar Zenhom:

And then.

Omar Zenhom:

you don't have to do anything yourself anymore.

Omar Zenhom:

You can literally just point to anybody who could read, can just

Omar Zenhom:

follow instructions and do it.

Omar Zenhom:

And I think that's a big hurdle are big burden off your shoulders.

Omar Zenhom:

Once you figure that out.

Omar Zenhom:

Oh man, the reason why I feel I have to do everything is because it's in my head.

Omar Zenhom:

Well, what if it wasn't in your head?

Omar Zenhom:

What if somebody could just do it and just follow instructions?

Omar Zenhom:

Well, that should be the first task anybody you hire to do so

Omar Zenhom:

that way it can be passed on to.

Sarah St John:

I've been thinking about how I need it's one of many things

Sarah St John:

on my list of things I need to do.

Sarah St John:

but I imagine like having them create the SOP before they actually do the

Sarah St John:

work is almost like a training process for them on, how to do the work

Omar Zenhom:

to right.

Omar Zenhom:

And in that process when they're creating these SLPs there's, I don't

Omar Zenhom:

know if you've heard of the like pebble rock and stone kind of metaphor.

Omar Zenhom:

So, sorry.

Omar Zenhom:

Sand pebble rock.

Omar Zenhom:

One of the things that a lot of people ask when they, were looking

Omar Zenhom:

to hire their first hire, the first hires is what do I hire for first?

Omar Zenhom:

what do I get off my plate first.

Omar Zenhom:

there's a theory that a lot of people, what they do is they do do a lot

Omar Zenhom:

of $10 tasks throughout their day.

Omar Zenhom:

And $10 tasks are like the death of any business or business owner,

Omar Zenhom:

because you can't do this forever.

Omar Zenhom:

You're going to burn out these are.

Omar Zenhom:

time-consuming tasks like replying to emails, like admin tasks,

Omar Zenhom:

like filling out spreadsheets.

Omar Zenhom:

Somebody asks you, Hey, can I have be on the podcast?

Omar Zenhom:

And then you have to figure out, okay, I got to fill this form images.

Omar Zenhom:

important, but it takes so little time.

Omar Zenhom:

And at the end of the day, does that really bring in the dollars?

Omar Zenhom:

Not really.

Omar Zenhom:

It's a $10 task.

Omar Zenhom:

But it takes so much time.

Omar Zenhom:

So this is like what's considered sand, And then you have, A hundred dollar tasks

Omar Zenhom:

They're a little bit more time consuming.

Omar Zenhom:

They're a little bit more valuable, but then you have $10,000 tasks and these are

Omar Zenhom:

the big rocks, This is like a sales call.

Omar Zenhom:

We were closing a deal.

Omar Zenhom:

So you can make $10,000 with a new client.

Omar Zenhom:

This is like doing a webinar and being able to make revenue on

Omar Zenhom:

your new, course you launched, That task has a lot of value.

Omar Zenhom:

the goal for any entrepreneur is that they should only be doing $10,000 tasks.

Omar Zenhom:

that's the only thing you should be doing.

Omar Zenhom:

And what happens is that when you're doing everything, it all gets mixed up.

Omar Zenhom:

So what happens is that we usually start our day doing a bunch of $10 tasks and we

Omar Zenhom:

fill in a cup, just imagine a cup filling up with sand, And then we try to fill in

Omar Zenhom:

some pebbles and then you're gonna put these big rocks in there and there's.

Omar Zenhom:

So we basically shortchange ourselves from doing the things that are most

Omar Zenhom:

valuable that can bring in all the money that we need for our business.

Omar Zenhom:

The idea is that the first thing you should be doing is putting in the big

Omar Zenhom:

rocks first, For the big rocks first.

Omar Zenhom:

Okay.

Omar Zenhom:

You get other people to help you with the pebbles and then the sand and

Omar Zenhom:

the sand will go into the crevices.

Omar Zenhom:

The point is, is that, we often put the big rocks aside because these little

Omar Zenhom:

testing so urgent and we need to do them.

Omar Zenhom:

And if I don't reply, then I will look rude and all this stuff you need somebody

Omar Zenhom:

to do the little tasks for you to do the two, the $10 tasks for you, which

Omar Zenhom:

are important in itself, but it doesn't require you what's your secret sauce?

Omar Zenhom:

Like, for example, You need to do these interviews, Sarah, because

Omar Zenhom:

you're the talent of the show, right?

Omar Zenhom:

You're the one who can get the guests on and extract what you need to extract.

Omar Zenhom:

So your listeners can learn.

Omar Zenhom:

That's your secret sauce.

Omar Zenhom:

You should be spending as much time as possible doing that.

Omar Zenhom:

Everything else to make this happen really can be done by somebody else.

Omar Zenhom:

that's what I've learned over the years.

Omar Zenhom:

that's how you can differentiate.

Omar Zenhom:

What's important.

Omar Zenhom:

What's on.

Sarah St John:

that's interesting about the $10 tasks versus $10,000 tasks.

Sarah St John:

I hadn't heard it quite like that and like the whole pebbles

Sarah St John:

and sand, but it makes sense.

Sarah St John:

So is there ever a point where you should hire someone else

Sarah St John:

though, to do a $10,000 task?

Sarah St John:

or should you always be doing those types of things?

Sarah St John:

At least

Omar Zenhom:

that's a good question.

Omar Zenhom:

And it, and the short answer is the $10,000 task hires are expensive.

Omar Zenhom:

If you can afford.

Omar Zenhom:

that's great, but somebody who is going to bring you in, let's say do a $10,000 task,

Omar Zenhom:

you know, three or four times a month, they're gonna need to be compensated

Omar Zenhom:

for that because that's their value.

Omar Zenhom:

So if you can afford that in your business, that's great.

Omar Zenhom:

But most businesses when, especially self-funded businesses They're looking

Omar Zenhom:

to scale up slowly and try to make as much money as possible as it growing.

Omar Zenhom:

And at the end of the day, you're going to do as many tasks as you can, but you want

Omar Zenhom:

to free up your time as much as possible with the tasks that don't require high-end

Omar Zenhom:

valuable talent, everybody's talented in their own way, but in terms of how much

Omar Zenhom:

money they can bring into the company.

Omar Zenhom:

So say for example and we've done this and we've, we've seen

Omar Zenhom:

a lot of companies do this.

Omar Zenhom:

Stanford, somebody hire somebody to run your webinars for you.

Omar Zenhom:

cause that's going to bring in new sales, somebody's going to host your webinars

Omar Zenhom:

and sell your products and services.

Omar Zenhom:

And you could do it like a commission thing or a percentage.

Omar Zenhom:

But the point here is, is that, you know, that this person's

Omar Zenhom:

going to bring in X amount.

Omar Zenhom:

That's a great hire, if they're going to be compensated for

Omar Zenhom:

it and that compensation makes sense, you're going to get an ROI.

Omar Zenhom:

So I definitely look at that as a big hire, but the more valuable

Omar Zenhom:

the higher, the risky it is.

Omar Zenhom:

let's say you hire To develop a mobile app for you.

Omar Zenhom:

Okay.

Omar Zenhom:

Maybe you're not a developer and you, you can do yourself to hire somebody.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm not saying don't hire this person to do the mobile app

Omar Zenhom:

because you need, the work.

Omar Zenhom:

But I'm saying that the risk of that hire is far greater than hiring

Omar Zenhom:

somebody to manage your inbox.

Omar Zenhom:

Because what's the worst they can do send the email by mistake or not reply to

Omar Zenhom:

somebody, whatever, like it can be solved.

Omar Zenhom:

you can reply to the puzzle.

Omar Zenhom:

Sorry.

Omar Zenhom:

That was a mistake.

Omar Zenhom:

My EA made a mistake that dah, dah, dah, and it's not a disaster.

Omar Zenhom:

if somebody's spending.

Omar Zenhom:

10, 20, $30,000 building a mobile app for you.

Omar Zenhom:

And then it doesn't work, fill the bugs and your customer's

Omar Zenhom:

upset and you can't make money.

Omar Zenhom:

It's a huge risk, that hires totally different.

Omar Zenhom:

And that's why I say you should ramp up to it because you're going to learn the

Omar Zenhom:

skills to know how to make a good hire in those areas that you're not familiar with.

Omar Zenhom:

Like engineering, for example, how do you hire a great engineer?

Omar Zenhom:

If you're an engineer yourself through the process of making

Omar Zenhom:

smaller hires, does that make sense?

Omar Zenhom:

There?

Sarah St John:

Yeah.

Sarah St John:

So it kind of talked about scaling, I guess there, and, good hires, bad hires.

Sarah St John:

Can you go a little bit more into that things to look out for?

Sarah St John:

And, and of course the process of scaling as well though.

Sarah St John:

That's probably two different

Omar Zenhom:

questions, but I kind of see hiring in two buckets.

Omar Zenhom:

there are hires that I can do myself without any help, because

Omar Zenhom:

I am familiar with the skill.

Omar Zenhom:

I know what it takes to be good at it.

Omar Zenhom:

let's say for example, I was looking to hire a great web

Omar Zenhom:

designer because I used to do that.

Omar Zenhom:

So I know what I'm looking for.

Omar Zenhom:

I know.

Omar Zenhom:

what is good and what's not good, So that's one bucket.

Omar Zenhom:

The other bucket is areas I don't know about.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm not good at this, for example, I've never composed music, but

Omar Zenhom:

I've needed somebody to create a great music piece for me, original.

Omar Zenhom:

I really don't know until they actually do the work.

Omar Zenhom:

It's hard for me to really know.

Omar Zenhom:

Maybe, You're not a good software engineer and you're looking to hire somebody

Omar Zenhom:

who's technical so they could do that.

Omar Zenhom:

That's a separate bucket.

Omar Zenhom:

And actually what I recommend.

Omar Zenhom:

For that type of bucket is actually to get a consultant by hire

Omar Zenhom:

somebody who's really expensive.

Omar Zenhom:

Okay.

Omar Zenhom:

But they're going to work for you very shortly.

Omar Zenhom:

This is what we did that really worked.

Omar Zenhom:

So basically they're like an advisor, right.

Omar Zenhom:

And you'd get there's ton of them on Upwork and freelancer

Omar Zenhom:

and things like that.

Omar Zenhom:

Technical advisor or somebody like that.

Omar Zenhom:

And they'll charge 120, 130, $150 an hour, they're going

Omar Zenhom:

to spend three or four hours.

Omar Zenhom:

You're going to spend 500 bucks, but they're going to save you

Omar Zenhom:

so much money and time because they know how to find experts.

Omar Zenhom:

Number one, they have a great network.

Omar Zenhom:

these are people that have worked for all the big tech companies.

Omar Zenhom:

And they're just looking for a little side gig, something interesting.

Omar Zenhom:

They like helping the small entrepreneur or the.

Omar Zenhom:

They're just looking for something to do on the side, on the weekend cause report.

Omar Zenhom:

they're only really priced for that much because they need to express their value.

Omar Zenhom:

So.

Omar Zenhom:

For you, you're getting somebody who is going to be able to vet somebody great.

Omar Zenhom:

And they have a great network, so they can, they might know somebody that

Omar Zenhom:

can just, Hey, I know this new junior engineer in my company is looking

Omar Zenhom:

for part-time work, blah, blah, blah.

Omar Zenhom:

You'd be perfect for this project.

Omar Zenhom:

They're going to save you a whole bunch of time.

Omar Zenhom:

They're going to be able to jump in and go through CVS for you.

Omar Zenhom:

They're gonna be able to do the interviews for you so they can evaluate

Omar Zenhom:

the qualifications and their job is basically to be the technical.

Omar Zenhom:

Evaluator of this higher.

Omar Zenhom:

these types of people in every field writers and designers and finance

Omar Zenhom:

people, you know, their CFOs and companies, and they they'd love to

Omar Zenhom:

be an advisor just for on the side.

Omar Zenhom:

And there's tons of them on these freelance sites.

Omar Zenhom:

And what's great about this.

Omar Zenhom:

They will take care of the technical stuff, but your job as a leader

Omar Zenhom:

of the company, still to take care of the cultural fit, make sure

Omar Zenhom:

that this person is a good fit for your company, a good fit for you.

Omar Zenhom:

At the end of the day, your company culture is an

Omar Zenhom:

extension of your personality.

Omar Zenhom:

Really?

Omar Zenhom:

The founders personnel.

Omar Zenhom:

Do you want to hang out with this person day in and day?

Omar Zenhom:

How would you want to have a drink with them, a coffee with them later on?

Omar Zenhom:

if you're not working, you know, you're going to, you spend a lot of time with

Omar Zenhom:

your team when you're working a lot of time in your life and your day,

Omar Zenhom:

you know, you might as well enjoy it.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's a good indicator.

Omar Zenhom:

If this is somebody that will fit with the rest of you working with you and.

Sarah St John:

So it's almost kind of like you're hiring someone

Sarah St John:

temporarily to look for people to hire.

Omar Zenhom:

Yeah.

Omar Zenhom:

And it's a really inexpensive way to do it because recruiters will charge, 10,

Omar Zenhom:

20% of the annual salary of that person.

Omar Zenhom:

And, you know, it's really expensive.

Omar Zenhom:

So you could just get an advice.

Omar Zenhom:

That will jump in and do the things that you're uncomfortable doing, like,

Omar Zenhom:

evaluating a candidates application coming up with a job description.

Omar Zenhom:

you can just frankly say this, this person, this advisor,

Omar Zenhom:

Hey, I'm trying to do X, Y, Z.

Omar Zenhom:

I don't know how to word this.

Omar Zenhom:

I don't know what kind of qualifications they need.

Omar Zenhom:

I don't know what they need to do.

Omar Zenhom:

They can and come up with a short job description so you

Omar Zenhom:

can post it on the job board.

Omar Zenhom:

They can tell you what job boards are good.

Omar Zenhom:

you're going to spend, you know, 5, 6, 7 hours with this person, but they're

Omar Zenhom:

going to get you a higher, that's going to save you so much more money and you're

Omar Zenhom:

going to get great value, great talent.

Sarah St John:

how does one know when it's time and this might not

Sarah St John:

apply to all businesses to, instead of having freelancers work for you.

Sarah St John:

Then switching over to, having full time, not just in the sense that they

Sarah St John:

work 40 hours, but like, you know, they get the benefits and all of that.

Sarah St John:

Like your standard, what, people are used to.

Sarah St John:

Right.

Sarah St John:

Even if it's a remote team though,

Omar Zenhom:

A lot of it has to do with the finances of the business, how healthy

Omar Zenhom:

you are in terms of what you can afford.

Omar Zenhom:

never try to stretch yourself.

Omar Zenhom:

if your business is where it's at, like, Hey, I can only hire

Omar Zenhom:

freelancers or contractors.

Omar Zenhom:

Cause I can't afford to give everybody healthcare or give everybody,

Omar Zenhom:

you know any other perks that I want to give them That's okay.

Omar Zenhom:

You don't have to be something you're not, I'm always about profit loss.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm always about making sure you're profitable.

Omar Zenhom:

Don't spend more, most businesses don't go out of business because

Omar Zenhom:

they They don't make enough money.

Omar Zenhom:

It's because they overspend most businesses fail because

Omar Zenhom:

they spend too much money.

Omar Zenhom:

that's something you should always keep an eye on so that I

Omar Zenhom:

would preface that just do it.

Omar Zenhom:

If you're comfortable.

Omar Zenhom:

Second of all.

Omar Zenhom:

Is, this is your business, right?

Omar Zenhom:

You could do what you want.

Omar Zenhom:

One of my favorite books is anything you want by Derek Sivers.

Omar Zenhom:

And it was kind of an eye-opener for me, because it was like, Yeah,

Omar Zenhom:

I can just create my own utopia.

Omar Zenhom:

No one is telling you your business has to be in a certain way.

Omar Zenhom:

If you want to create a hybrid approach where you give a great leave policy

Omar Zenhom:

and you have other benefits other than, healthcare, or you give them

Omar Zenhom:

a little bit more money, so they can sort out their own healthcare.

Omar Zenhom:

That's up to you, your business, you do what you want, and you're not

Omar Zenhom:

less of a business or, anything else.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's the other thing I would convey, but one of the things

Omar Zenhom:

that we do in our business, I can only share what has worked for us.

Omar Zenhom:

At some point, I need to show the person who's on my team, a level of commitment.

Omar Zenhom:

I need to say I'm committed to you.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm investing in you.

Omar Zenhom:

I need you to invest in me and my vision, Really a founder of a company is, just

Omar Zenhom:

really a glorified coach of a team.

Omar Zenhom:

And I learned this, just play basketball.

Omar Zenhom:

When I was younger as a coach, you got to get these people.

Omar Zenhom:

Sold on the vision that they can win.

Omar Zenhom:

You got to get these people to work together somehow to listen to what

Omar Zenhom:

you're saying, to like follow the instructions, to follow the game plan.

Omar Zenhom:

as a business owner, that's really what you're doing.

Omar Zenhom:

You're, getting a bunch of strangers together and you're

Omar Zenhom:

saying, Hey, we need to get.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

This is what we're trying to get to.

Omar Zenhom:

This is how I think we can get there in a nice, efficient way.

Omar Zenhom:

Are you with me?

Omar Zenhom:

Are you willing to sacrifice and do the things I'm asking you to do so we can

Omar Zenhom:

get there, I'm simplifying this, but this is really what's happening here.

Omar Zenhom:

So in order for me, to ask of that.

Omar Zenhom:

It's a pretty big ask.

Omar Zenhom:

I need to say, Hey, I'm committed to you.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm investing in you.

Omar Zenhom:

This is what I want to say to you.

Omar Zenhom:

So, and this could be a form of a contract, like an annual contract

Omar Zenhom:

and saying, Hey, I want you to hang on for X amount of time.

Omar Zenhom:

This is, could be an increment scheme where it's like, you

Omar Zenhom:

get evaluated after a year.

Omar Zenhom:

And then you get, you know, three to 5% increase in your salary.

Omar Zenhom:

It gotta be something where you.

Omar Zenhom:

I am investing in you please invest in us.

Omar Zenhom:

And what we do is we actually start everybody as a quote unquote freelancer,

Omar Zenhom:

where they're basically on probation for three months, because you really

Omar Zenhom:

don't know if somebody is great at what they do until they actually do it.

Omar Zenhom:

And they could be great at what they do, but they.

Omar Zenhom:

Do so well in your environment, in your workspace and the way

Omar Zenhom:

you work in the way in your level of, standards or whatever it is.

Omar Zenhom:

So I always encourage people to have that probational period where they

Omar Zenhom:

get evaluated for three months and then if they pass that, that's when

Omar Zenhom:

you connect, send like a long-term contract and say, Hey, this is

Omar Zenhom:

where where I want to commit to you.

Omar Zenhom:

And then it goes both ways.

Omar Zenhom:

So will you say, Hey, after three months, if you feel like

Omar Zenhom:

this is not a good fit for you.

Omar Zenhom:

We can part ways, no harm, no foul, all good, and it's a good way because

Omar Zenhom:

you allow them to really feel what it's like to work for you and to, and

Omar Zenhom:

to be managed in, your setting and your team and all that kind of stuff.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's kind of the procedure I have found to work for us.

Omar Zenhom:

But.

Omar Zenhom:

I've learned throughout the years that there you Ghana some way

Omar Zenhom:

commit to them somehow you gotta make sure they understand that,

Omar Zenhom:

Hey I'm committing to your success.

Omar Zenhom:

And a lot of that has to do with their work environment.

Omar Zenhom:

if I look back in the days when I was in a job before entrepreneurial.

Omar Zenhom:

The jobs I hated had nothing to do with my salary, had nothing to do.

Omar Zenhom:

My benefits had nothing to do with how much leave I have.

Omar Zenhom:

I didn't even know how much leave I had Had to do with, was

Omar Zenhom:

I happy to go to work every day?

Omar Zenhom:

Was I being challenged as I was growing?

Omar Zenhom:

Did I respect my superiors?

Omar Zenhom:

Like my managers did.

Omar Zenhom:

I feel like I was a part of the success of that organization?

Omar Zenhom:

Did I feel validated people actually recognize my.

Omar Zenhom:

These are all things you could do for free, These are all things you

Omar Zenhom:

could do for free as a business owner.

Omar Zenhom:

And that's what people have to understand is that there's so

Omar Zenhom:

much you can do on a budget.

Omar Zenhom:

There's so much you can do to, just praise how often have you praised every

Omar Zenhom:

teammate on your, team just for doing their job or doing it excellently.

Omar Zenhom:

So these are just some of the things I've learned along the way that.

Sarah St John:

That's very interesting to get your input on that and

Sarah St John:

your experiences and whatnot.

Sarah St John:

Now when it comes to hiring someone, what are some things we should

Sarah St John:

look out for, to avoid a bad hire?

Sarah St John:

And then if you do end up hiring a bad hire, what's the best approach

Sarah St John:

to, either combat that and make them a good hire or, Give him the boot, I

Omar Zenhom:

guess that's a, that's a good question.

Omar Zenhom:

So it all starts in your first conversations with them.

Omar Zenhom:

Anytime you're hiring for some, position, As the business owner, as a person

Omar Zenhom:

who's making the hiring decision, you got to see this as almost like

Omar Zenhom:

you're a detective solving a case.

Omar Zenhom:

All right.

Omar Zenhom:

I know this sounds a little bit weird, but.

Omar Zenhom:

In order for a detective to make a decision, if this person is the

Omar Zenhom:

killer or not, they need evidence.

Omar Zenhom:

They need facts.

Omar Zenhom:

they need alibis, they need information, So I always go into every

Omar Zenhom:

interview or I tell them before the interview, I say, guys, whoever's

Omar Zenhom:

going to be interviewed today.

Omar Zenhom:

I maybe I send an email to all the candidates or whatever.

Omar Zenhom:

this is a time for you to show me what.

Omar Zenhom:

This is not the time to be humble.

Omar Zenhom:

It's time to brag the seller to tell me all the things you did,

Omar Zenhom:

that is going to prove that you're qualified for this job or that

Omar Zenhom:

you'll do amazing job at our company.

Omar Zenhom:

If you do not give me the information to make a decision, I cannot make a decision.

Omar Zenhom:

I make it clear.

Omar Zenhom:

This is how you win.

Omar Zenhom:

Unfortunately, a lot of people show up to interviews and they just can't.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm not sure what they're looking for.

Omar Zenhom:

And I just flat out say, Hey, I'm looking for actual stories, actual events, actual

Omar Zenhom:

tasks, projects that you worked on, that you have learned from that experience

Omar Zenhom:

is going to be able to contribute to your time here at my company.

Omar Zenhom:

How you think that you can influence and help the team in different ways.

Omar Zenhom:

I asked for specifics, So if this is even before we even talked to each other

Omar Zenhom:

on a call I don't want to be pulling teeth, If I have to keep on praying and

Omar Zenhom:

praying, this is over you gotta want it.

Omar Zenhom:

You gotta one of the job, right?

Omar Zenhom:

So you have to present yourself, you have to present the information, the

Omar Zenhom:

evidence in order for me to say, yeah, this person is a great candidate, so

Omar Zenhom:

that it just prepares the candidate to be at their best To bring their best

Omar Zenhom:

self, so to speak to the interview.

Omar Zenhom:

in the interview, I'm always asking for examples.

Omar Zenhom:

A lot of people, unfortunately just because it's just been their nature of

Omar Zenhom:

the culture of hiring and interviews, they don't actually give examples.

Omar Zenhom:

They actually say, in this case I would do this.

Omar Zenhom:

No, I don't care about what I, I want to know what you.

Omar Zenhom:

So, for example, like tell me how you would deal with a conflict with a, with

Omar Zenhom:

a superior or colleague and maybe you could tell me a story from the past.

Omar Zenhom:

Well, in a situation like this, I usually like to, I just stop them.

Omar Zenhom:

It's it's I don't want to know what you usually do.

Omar Zenhom:

I don't want to know the theory.

Omar Zenhom:

I want you to tell me a story.

Omar Zenhom:

When you had a conflict with somebody and tell me what happened, tell me

Omar Zenhom:

you don't have to mention names, but you can say, you know what happened?

Omar Zenhom:

and I find that I have to do this three or four times in interview.

Omar Zenhom:

Like I said, thanks really appreciate what you're saying right now.

Omar Zenhom:

But I need a real example.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

Because a lot of people will hire people based on what they say.

Omar Zenhom:

And now what actually happened.

Omar Zenhom:

You need to know what happened again.

Omar Zenhom:

You're kind of like a detective trying to get the evidence, right?

Omar Zenhom:

when you have an interview, a candidate, it's just telling you all

Omar Zenhom:

these great stories, all these great examples of when they failed, when

Omar Zenhom:

they've learned, when they've improved something in their company, you now

Omar Zenhom:

have credible evidence that they can carry that on into your business.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's my advice is just like, that's the first step in the interview.

Omar Zenhom:

Now, when they're in your company, some red flags are they are basically not.

Omar Zenhom:

Jumping on the grenade is what we call it.

Omar Zenhom:

Right?

Omar Zenhom:

So jumping on that grenade, meaning like when something is wrong or something needs

Omar Zenhom:

to be fixed or mistakes happen, they don't just, they're ready to jump on it and be

Omar Zenhom:

like, Hey, let's fix this, let's do this.

Omar Zenhom:

They take initiative.

Omar Zenhom:

And, they're willing to roll up their sleeves and any situation,

Omar Zenhom:

say for example, you hired somebody to be a producer on your show and a

Omar Zenhom:

show didn't get published on time.

Omar Zenhom:

they don't point fingers or like up, let me go in and check that out.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm going to fix it right now, but okay.

Omar Zenhom:

Then I do a post-mortem.

Omar Zenhom:

Why did that happen?

Omar Zenhom:

Oh, I think I didn't set the reminder on my calendar.

Omar Zenhom:

This is why they take ownership.

Omar Zenhom:

They take responsibility and they jump on the issue.

Omar Zenhom:

A lot of people that talk a good game in an interview and don't perform

Omar Zenhom:

the job are the ones that kind of.

Omar Zenhom:

Lean back into the bushes, like Homer Simpson, right?

Omar Zenhom:

Like they don't really, they don't exist anymore when the problem, when

Omar Zenhom:

the quote-unquote poopoo hits the fan.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

So the point here is, is that you need people that are

Omar Zenhom:

willing to take responsibility.

Omar Zenhom:

And one of the things that we've talk about a lot in our company is

Omar Zenhom:

that responsibility is not fault.

Omar Zenhom:

first of all, as a business owner, you are responsible for everything.

Omar Zenhom:

Okay.

Omar Zenhom:

It doesn't mean it's your fault, right?

Omar Zenhom:

It could be somebody whose mistake, somebody did something else, but by

Omar Zenhom:

saying you're responsible and every team member in your team says, I am responsible

Omar Zenhom:

for what happens under my watch.

Omar Zenhom:

It means.

Omar Zenhom:

You're not going to wait for somebody else to do something.

Omar Zenhom:

It's my responsibility.

Omar Zenhom:

I gotta do something to fix it.

Omar Zenhom:

you're going to take the initiative to do it.

Omar Zenhom:

You're going to take an initiative to improve it, right.

Omar Zenhom:

If it's my responsibility to have excellent customer support when

Omar Zenhom:

I'm answering as customer, and the customer gives me a bad rating.

Omar Zenhom:

And that's our responsibility.

Omar Zenhom:

Okay.

Omar Zenhom:

It's something happened here that they're not upset about how can I

Omar Zenhom:

follow up with them and make sure that they're a little bit happier.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's a great thing that you can encourage in your team

Omar Zenhom:

is just take responsibility.

Omar Zenhom:

Don't worry about whose fault it is, because when you take responsibility,

Omar Zenhom:

things just improve and you start to grow.

Sarah St John:

Yeah, that's awesome.

Sarah St John:

That gives me some clarity on, when that day comes, what to look

Sarah St John:

for, what to make sure the good.

Sarah St John:

The positive things and negative things.

Sarah St John:

Also I feel like I've learned a lot so far, as far as making, a

Sarah St John:

first hire and then scaling and growing from there and, the process

Sarah St John:

and what to look for and whatnot.

Sarah St John:

Was there anything else that you wanted to go over that we had.

Omar Zenhom:

I would encourage anybody who's listening who is

Omar Zenhom:

maybe a solopreneur and they're like, I want to make a first hire.

Omar Zenhom:

I'm not sure if I can afford it.

Omar Zenhom:

I don't know what's going on.

Omar Zenhom:

Right.

Omar Zenhom:

My advice would be like, It's actually not as expensive as you think it is.

Omar Zenhom:

And you should just see this as a professional development exercise,

Omar Zenhom:

you would buy an online course for $2,000 to learn something.

Omar Zenhom:

See this as a $2,000 investment in you're growing your business, Or.

Omar Zenhom:

You don't have to hire some full-time.

Omar Zenhom:

You can hire somebody part-time you can hire a virtual assistant out of

Omar Zenhom:

the Philippines on online jobs pH for two, $300 a month for 20 hours a week.

Omar Zenhom:

and they can take off so many, $10 tasks off your, plate.

Omar Zenhom:

They can create your SOP is they can, at the very least, do all

Omar Zenhom:

these menial tasks that you don't want to do in your personal life.

Omar Zenhom:

If you want to like, order gifts for somebody or, book a flight or whatever

Omar Zenhom:

it is, but the point here is that.

Omar Zenhom:

It's actually not that expensive.

Omar Zenhom:

And if you say to yourself, well, I'll do what I can afford it.

Omar Zenhom:

Well, say that now, how much money are you making now?

Omar Zenhom:

Let's say, for example, your business is making $5,000 a month

Omar Zenhom:

and you're like, okay, that's how much I'm making every month.

Omar Zenhom:

As soon as you make 5,200.

Omar Zenhom:

You should make that higher right now you can afford it.

Omar Zenhom:

Right?

Omar Zenhom:

So stick to your word and see us in the next exercise of learning.

Omar Zenhom:

How to be a good manager at learning how to be a good leader.

Omar Zenhom:

you can be good with money.

Omar Zenhom:

If you don't have money, you can be a good leader.

Omar Zenhom:

If you don't have.

Omar Zenhom:

you just won't learn how to do it if you don't have the

Omar Zenhom:

prerequisite of people delete.

Omar Zenhom:

So that's what I learned over the years and it's okay if

Omar Zenhom:

they don't work out, it's okay.

Omar Zenhom:

If you learn a hard lesson, this is why we have these procedures in

Omar Zenhom:

these safety nets and the probational periods, all that kind of stuff.

Omar Zenhom:

And at the end of the day, that's why I say start with SOP is because if they

Omar Zenhom:

leave, and they didn't work out, at least you have something that's left behind,

Omar Zenhom:

that's worth of value that you can, build.

Sarah St John:

I love that comparison of, if you're going to spend $2,000

Sarah St John:

or even 500 on a course, which people do a lot, why not spend that on a

Sarah St John:

virtual assistant at least to start And how you can view it as a learning

Sarah St John:

experience or an experiment, even if it doesn't work out, like you said.

Sarah St John:

that's awesome.

Sarah St John:

Well, I really appreciate your time today and all your insight.

Sarah St John:

I'll have show notes at the Sarah St.

Sarah St John:

john.com forward slash Omar, but then people can find you directly.

Sarah St John:

Omar Zen home.com that Z E N H O M also webinarninja.com.

Sarah St John:

That's your software for webinars.

Sarah St John:

And if anyone's interested, you can go back it's somewhere within the

Sarah St John:

first seven episodes of the podcast.

Sarah St John:

And listen to that one about webinar ninja, and then your

Sarah St John:

podcast is at a hundred.

Sarah St John:

M B a.net.

Sarah St John:

thank you so much for your time.

Sarah St John:

I really appreciate

Omar Zenhom:

it.

Omar Zenhom:

Thanks.

About the author